Oh mk! Thanks for clarifying, I’m sorry if I was being rude earlier. I was just saying that it can still work without Tailwind. See, the most important thing with both Urshifu forms is that you need to deal damage. And you DID mention that. And while I hard disagree with the Tailwind claims, I do think that it needs speed drops(Icy Wind/Electroweb) or Scarf outside of Tailwind. I do still think it’s an S tier Pokemon solely because it can pair well with so many things and deals so much damage.I didn't say it needs Tornadus , I said it needs heavy speed control like TW. The 2 recent regionals have Urshifu paired with Tailwind 95% of the time, if it was doing just as well without it, this really wouldn't be the case. If Urshifu needs this support to function so well, I don't think it individually qualifies for S. I understand it can work but I also feel a lot of personal ladder experience can be iffy, because Urshifu has not felt overwhelming at all to me without Tornadus .